Do y'all think the next SG will be for backers, maybe around 120k or for $, maybe with a $5 million goal?
JusticeBolt 2015-01-28T12:33:42-05:00
I think 5 millions would make sense I guess.
BruceP - The Chameleon 2015-01-28T12:37:16-05:00
$5mil won't be much of a stretch. ;) How about $6mil?
Nate Outland 2015-01-28T12:42:56-05:00
And I guess it also depends on how many stretch goals are still planned, and the additional expense of each goal
Chris "The Historian" Loth 2015-01-28T12:45:39-05:00
+1 dns12999, well put.
It's clear we have differing opinions on what should (or should not) happen as far as updates, SGs, etc. The comments have been respectful and it has been one of the more civilized conversations I've seen in a comments section. At the same time, I don't see one side convincing the other side to change their respective positions. May I propose we get back to what brought us together in the first place? Kittens of Mass Destruction (KMDs).
I for one am basking in the thought of sitting around the table in my backyard with some close friends, some good beer and lots of 'splodin kittehs.
Poz 2015-01-28T12:46:15-05:00
@CREATOR: PLEASE UPDATE FAQ WITH HOW SO MANY BACKERS WILL AFFECT DELIVERY TIME.
Poz 2015-01-28T12:47:13-05:00
Unless they have so many backers they don't care about being honest about the delivery date, who cares if they lose a few, right?
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2015-01-28T12:47:16-05:00
@Poz, please stop spamming them that here (and in full caps) and just message the creator directly.
@Rod, please keep your comments directed away from me and on topic.
Poz 2015-01-28T12:49:11-05:00
I will be commenting that until it is answered.
Scott Viverito 2015-01-28T12:49:39-05:00
@Chris, that sounds like a good name for an expansion :)
BruceP - The Chameleon 2015-01-28T12:50:23-05:00
@Poz,
You're not being respectful and considerate by posting an all-caps thing like that over and over. A better way to make sure the creators see a message is to use the Contact Me link.
Chris "The Historian" Loth 2015-01-28T12:50:40-05:00
@Scott, if they make it I will buy it. :)
Scott Viverito 2015-01-28T12:54:31-05:00
@Poz I understand your concern, but the comments is the wrong venue. Questions like that should probably go through the "Contact me" link on the main page, that is the correct method for getting an answer to a question. and to be honest I agree with @Rod's comment which was to my mind, on topic since you posted it in comments which made your question and where you were asking it part of the current topics.
Poz 2015-01-28T12:54:49-05:00
As if I have not done that...
For a comment thread that moves as fast as this one, that is required for important questions. Most comments here are not requesting info that is required to decided if they want to keep being a backer. This would be an example of a comment that does not need the attention of the creator.
It is you that is being not being respectful or considerate by harassing me.
People like @Poz make me wish there was an ignore button next to each users name.
BruceP - The Chameleon 2015-01-28T12:56:04-05:00
@Poz,
If you've already posted your question through the Contact Me link, then you most certainly don't need to spam it here in the comments. They are swamped with tons of email, so have patience.
@Poz it took them about 5 days just to respond to all of the messages from the first day so they will eventually get to your message it just make take longer than you would like or expect that it should.
Also it should be common sense by now to everyone on here that they will be delayed a month or three due to the high volume of backers so I don't think that its necessary that they post it in the FAQ since again you just need to use some common sense.
Jeff Richards 2015-01-28T13:01:30-05:00
@Poz, if you want to ask a question of the creators, use "Contact Me". There is an almost zero chance of them seeing your comment among 4500+ others, so all you're doing is frustrating yourself and annoying other backers. All caps and repeated posting isn't following that "Be respectful and considerate" guideline, and I've seen people get their accounts suspended for being too annoying. Better to lose one backer than dozens over an annoying comments section. Let's keep things positive, and send the questions where they belong, and where they'll be far more likely to be answered.
Scott Viverito 2015-01-28T13:02:33-05:00
@somonflex oh come on .... I'm sure at least one card has a word that is French in origin .... doesn't that count ;)
@Joshua: it is hard to wrap one's head around just how many people 100,000+ really is too though. I get it, but a misunderstanding can be easy... especially since people aren't taking into account extra orders and post-production product.
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:03:05-05:00
This is not an already established game with existing inventory and supply chain. You are providing seed money and MAY get the game whenever it's made. (This isn't even a guarantee) I highly doubt even the creators or their printer have a firm date of delivery.
Simply put, you get it when you get it.
Jeff Richards 2015-01-28T13:03:47-05:00
And also, if you've already sent a message, just be patient. There are at least 100,000 people who might be emailing them (even more if you count people who haven't backed yet but have questions), and I'm sure they're doing their best to reply to everyone. It just takes time. Plus, there are 22 more days to decide for sure about your pledge, so no need to panic.
Nate Outland 2015-01-28T13:04:47-05:00
@Poz
Why is is so important when you get the game? With probably 150k orders to fulfill by the tine this is done, it likely won't be at all of our doorsteps by July, but is it a deal breaker if you get it in September? Or November?
@Evan also when you consider that we still have 22 days left then it gets even more crazy because I estimate that if were to end today they would have well north of 250,000 units to package and ship out.
Now if you add on all of the new orders placed over the next 22 days, then we could easily see that increase to 400,000 or more.
Scott Viverito 2015-01-28T13:06:20-05:00
Ok gang time for a new topic.
Poz 2015-01-28T13:06:23-05:00
My question assumes there is going to be a delay, what I want is a new estimate.
Also, this comment section is the perfect place for such a question. This is where the creators have an open dialog with their backers. They should be reading these comments.
"Bicycle® Prestige cards offers unmatched durability and is the only 100% plastic card to offer a paper-like feel. Perfect for a neighborhood game or a professional tournament."
"Many professionals prefer the flexibility and durability of plastic cards.
The Bicycle® Prestige cards offers unmatched durability and is the only 100% plastic card to offer a paper-like feel.
Perfect for a neighborhood game or a professional tournament."
"This rare deck of cards was produced as a trial run using a new material by Bicycle and are 100% plastic Many professionals prefer the flexibility and durability of plastic cards
Bicycle prestige offers unmatched durability and is the only 100% plastic card to offer a paper-like fee"
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:08:13-05:00
@Joshua
Exactly. Even if they could give a good estimate based on the number of backers they have / expect, things can still change. Right now they may expect to print 500,000 decks. Maybe there's a huge surge and they get to 750,000 and due to prior time commitments from the printer it takes a few extra months.
So, the real question you have to ask yourself is, when do I no longer back? Is September okay? If they delay to December would I still purchase? What about next March? For me, I'll just get it whenever it shows up and be happy with it.
BruceP - The Chameleon 2015-01-28T13:09:42-05:00
@Eric A,
I'm the same. Doesn't matter to me when the game shows up. I know it likely won't be in July, and that's ok by me.
Poz 2015-01-28T13:10:59-05:00
Your right Eric, they should keep their estimate delivery time up to date as this project moves along.
I am not sure at what point I would back out. I think mid 2016, but I would stick around for a few more days to sleep on it before I back out.
Kyly Thurlow 2015-01-28T13:11:31-05:00
I have had projects almost a year late on delivery time. If you believe in the project and product then time frame should never be a factor in whether you continue to back or not.
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:11:34-05:00
@Al
I think Bicycle bought the KEM playing cards production and brand from KEM some time ago. I think KEM just sells them the plastic now so that's probably just a different branding of the same thing. As far as the weight, I don't have a digital scale (or two decks of cards) with me here at the office, but they're roughly equivalent. I *think* the plastic weighs slightly less and seems lighter to handle, but it's not an appreciable difference.
BruceP - The Chameleon 2015-01-28T13:12:30-05:00
@Kyly T,
Same here. I'm still waiting on some projects about a year and a half later...
Poz 2015-01-28T13:13:05-05:00
Anyway, I officially apologise for annoying some of you. Sorry.
I believe this relatively long segmented discussion will suffice for a few days and will hopefully get the creators attention.
Al Calavicci 2015-01-28T13:13:49-05:00
If plastic is less, that means less shipping charges when you multiply it by 500,000+ decks!
Plastic might equal savings. But I don't know the weight so I can't be sure.
I just know PAPER is very HEAVY!
Level Up Inc 2015-01-28T13:15:11-05:00
@Al Calavicci,
Plastic might be lighter, but is it cheaper? Is the savings on shipping more than the expense of switching to plastic? I don't know, but I'd welcome input from someone who might. I know that KEM cards are a fair bit more expensive than their paper counterparts.
BruceP - The Chameleon 2015-01-28T13:17:07-05:00
Actually, one project is about to be 2 years away from when the Kickstarter finished. Hope I'll get that one soon.
John "Collar Stay" Kelly 2015-01-28T13:17:31-05:00
Stretch Goal - Update the FAQ with questions you have been receiving so people can stop speculating.
@Kyly: I still have projects that I haven't received yet(not even the refund I was told told I would get for one, the other the creator ignores every comment/email/Facebook message. Refund was promised back in Nov, project funded 1.5 years prior to that)
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:19:36-05:00
Even if their printer had it as a $4 premium, it's still going to dwarf any freight savings.
Patrick Thurston 2015-01-28T13:19:47-05:00
Man the bigger this community got the more fights have broken out back before we were 100 000 everyone was so nice to each other now i come back and every ones fighting this is no good lets just change the subject and start commenting fast so the negative gets pushed down we should be really worried about when this game ships the populations of cats will be droping drastically!
Pha3drus 2015-01-28T13:20:06-05:00
New stretch goal: "You will get your stretch goal at $5 million" ;-)
Al Calavicci 2015-01-28T13:20:38-05:00
He is already making 80% profit. it cost very little to produces and ship two deck of cards.
I estimate costs at ~5 per backer with another $5 for shipping, and that is my high estimate.
So 25$ of every purchase might me pure profit. 70% goes into the owners wallet.
then can afford to pay a few more cents for a plastic upgrade!
We need some hard facts
1) weight of avg normal paper deck of cards
2) weight of avg normal plastic deck of cards
3) cost of manufacturing of paper
4) cost of manufacturing of plastic
5) % of backers that want plastic over paper
John "Collar Stay" Kelly 2015-01-28T13:22:16-05:00
@Al - You are forgetting taxes and KS fees. I'm sure there is a lot more you're forgetting as well.
@Al: A lot of people don't really get just how much is going to be involved in getting this out the door. There will be profits, just not as much as people think.
Level Up Inc 2015-01-28T13:24:06-05:00
@Jason Tice
That isn't a good thing for them! And here I was going to see what else they do. Hopefully they can get more bandwidth. It'd suck to be down for the rest of the month until their cap resets!
Pha3drus 2015-01-28T13:24:22-05:00
@Al, also credit card fees. Plus this is money split between the 3 creators of the project. Plus the massive cost of shipping which is probably subsidized for some people in the cost of the purchase. For Canada, shipping is only $5, which is dirt cheap. Can't ship anything for $5.
After a quick look...guess it wasn't 1.5 years back that it was funded...but just about a year back from when I was told I would get a refund. Those cards lived up to the plane they were named after though...so stealthy that they don't appear anywhere but on store shelves before backers got anything.
However we are manufacturing magnitudes higher then listed on that site.
So it is reasonable for cards $1 per pack paper, $4 per pack plastic with scale of 500k packs
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:26:17-05:00
Projected costs of a $35 deck (Warning, only my guesstimate):
KS cut - 5% = $1.75
Credit card processing fees - 3-5% = $1.40
Pre-fulfilment survey and processing - 3-5% = $1.40
Actual card production on decent cards - $2/pack = $4
Instructions / box / packaging = $2
'Thing-of-incredible-delight' = $2 (may vary depending on where you buy your delights)
Freight to Partners = $.50
Postal packing and shipping first class = $4
Sales tax - 7% = $2.45 (avg amongst the states by pop. I'm guessing)
Fulfilment partner cut = $2 (best guess from Amazon's site)
==========
Revenue = $35 - $1.75 - $1.40 - $1.40 = $30.45
Costs = $4 + $2 + $2 + $.50 + $4 + $2.45 + $2 = $16.95
Profit per unit = $13.50 (39% of top line revenue)
The single decks are $15 cheaper, but only save about $5.25 in shipping and production costs. They're making less money per unit on the $20 / deck version compared to the $35 for two version.
Al Calavicci 2015-01-28T13:27:05-05:00
The profits on this project are massive. To say otherwise is silly.
But lets get back to the facts and examples of paper vs plastic. Any other examples will be great!
Nate Outland 2015-01-28T13:27:43-05:00
@Al
Are you trying to get your main account banned from the comment section from another top10 KS project? ;)
Poz 2015-01-28T13:28:48-05:00
Doesn't kickstarter take 10%, that is what I always assumed... Do they say anywhere?
Keith "Virrgo" Goken 2015-01-28T13:29:30-05:00
STOP your whinny ass's, it's there money!!!!! You paid for witch ever goal chosen, if there is more great. And if they want to make a couple dollars, we have no say. ENJOY what your getting Greedy f&@k's
@Poz between KS fees and credit card processing fees it comes to about 10%
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2015-01-28T13:30:10-05:00
Why are people so opposed to these guys making money?
Eric 'Trinkets' Baumgarten 2015-01-28T13:30:35-05:00
Next stretch goal, fixing admagic so the cards can be printed.
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:30:36-05:00
KS takes 5%. Credit Card fees take another 3-5% depending on the card. Assume a 4% average. Plus, with a project this massive they will outsource the end of campaign surveys, which I haven't gotten a firm estimate on but seems to also be in the 3-5% realm for a low cost project like this.
Jeff Richards 2015-01-28T13:30:36-05:00
If there's one thing I've learned from backing KSers and having run my own, it's that guessing costs for another business is usually futile. :-)
Also, they have their own overheads, such as bandwidth for the Oatmeal, and this is 3 people's livelihood. I don't think any of them are extremely wealthy by any means. So I'm happy to support them here. Other Kickstarter's are really not making much profit. Other Kickstarters are just basically promotion for the product itself.
It will be a lot closer to 40 or 50% which is still a pretty good profit margin.
Thewarstore.com 2015-01-28T13:32:53-05:00
That's capitalism guys, it is awesome that people can still make fortune off a good idea. THis should spur others into doing the same and making the gaming industry great.
Pha3drus 2015-01-28T13:33:42-05:00
and don't forget packaging and mailing logistics, which from other KS projects is a total nightmare. Somebody's got to attach all those addresses to the boxes. Make sure the right reward is going to the right person, and mail them.
Al Calavicci 2015-01-28T13:34:09-05:00
I like when owners of projects give me refunds.
Kickstarter backers should remember at ANY time (before or after the project ends) the project creator can give you a refund and remove you from the backer list.
I got booted from the Coolest Cooler. Which I should of because I always shared creditable information. When the creator of a product goes on national TV the day before the project closes and tells everyone the shipment time is unchanged, it is an obvious deception. And we are starting to see that as the Coolest Cooler product progresses. I still have a few backup accounts I can comment with on that project, but I am waiting for it to explode!
It is our job to discuss all aspects of a project.
More discussion should be done about money. It is responsible. Kickstarter doesn't care about us (they still profit from failure or fraud) so it is our job to police the projects.
Nate Outland 2015-01-28T13:34:22-05:00
Profits aren't allowed now, remember, this is Obama's America now! Profits= bad
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2015-01-28T13:35:19-05:00
And then you have to account for miss shipments and loses , there are so many hidden costs involved. It's not as simple as many seem to think.
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:35:34-05:00
I remember when I was in school and worked in a large box retailer. I mentioned something along the lines of "I don't want the customer to just think we're here to make more money." My boss said (on the floor) "Attention customers! We are here to make money! If we don't make money we will no longer be here for you to shop at!"
At that moment my entire outlook of business changed. I always knew businesses had to make profit to keep running, and that you should shop at places you like. But it really just 'clicked'. If I like what you sell, I don't mind giving you a few bucks to keep selling it.
Poz 2015-01-28T13:36:54-05:00
With this much money and such a large target audience they may want to make sure their legal work is covered. It is probably a relatively small amount, but it is an example of some initial costs they will have.
Plus there are three of them so they need to split it. Then income tax... Unless that is just in my country.
I wont be enough to retire on, at least at this point (maybe in 22 days).
What is important is the long term success of their game.
Nate Outland 2015-01-28T13:38:51-05:00
How are KS proceeds taxed? I'm sure not very closely watched by the IRS, and I bet a lot go unpaid completely, but hopefully not a top10 project.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2015-01-28T13:39:40-05:00
Oooh don't mess with the irs!
Pha3drus 2015-01-28T13:39:48-05:00
Also, can you imagine trying to negotiate with Printing companies?? "oh! you're exploding kittens?? oh yes, it will be VERY pricey to print your game... we ask for minimum 30% of profits...." The second any printing company hear's they need 109,000 copies of the game they will know its exploding kittens if they are savvy.... But they won't want to lose the contract. Ugh. Horrible. I'd hate to try to negotiate that.
@Poz: You're quite right. There are a lot of little things and miscellaneous overhead to account for too. Simply keeping track of it all is probably a logistics nightmare...
Kickstarter is required to report the payments that it makes to project creators to the IRS especially for projects that have a significant payment.
The company that receives the money would then need to show the IRS how much it has cost them to produce and ship out the product to the buyers and that would be subtracted from the funds that they received to determine how much taxes they have to pay on the funds.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2015-01-28T13:42:23-05:00
@Evan and someone has to be paid for that to...
Cal "Blackhawk" Rasmussen 2015-01-28T13:42:33-05:00
Has any one thought that they may have already started printing some of the decks? Just a thought.
Poz 2015-01-28T13:43:29-05:00
Not really, they could use a number of printing company's to speed up the process... Also, I am pretty sure it is illegal to charge more to specific company so blatantly. Also, with such a large amount of orders the economics of scare are much better. There are larger company that make larger orders. Exploding kittens is small compared to them.
Last question would be, would you want to be the sales person that lost 100k+ order because you wanted to get a few extra % profit?
Exploding Kittens have the power in negotiating that.
@Cal that would be the smart thing for them to do and it could easily be done on a 60 day payment term since they can show the company that they will be able to pay it in full within 60 days.
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:45:32-05:00
Yes, make no mistake about it, at the negotiating table EK will have the leverage. This a massive order for suppliers that do custom runs. I mean, they wouldn't be able to get Bicycle to do it or anything, but every small company would be fighting for the opportunity if allowed.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2015-01-28T13:47:17-05:00
I don't think that they will be using multiple printing companies. It would exponentially increase the likelihood of problems.
BruceP - The Chameleon 2015-01-28T13:48:13-05:00
Yeah, multiple printing companies is just asking for trouble.
Eric 'Tchotchke' Aschner 2015-01-28T13:48:44-05:00
Also, doubt they would have started the decks yet. The printing company would most likely want to do it all in a single run or maybe a few runs at most. They'll be waiting for the final count before they spin up the machines. Plus, especially for orders this large, there is most likely a waiting period.
Not exactly the same, but in electronics you order your bulk components several quarters ahead of time usually. If I wanted to make 100,000 radios I'd have to order all of the parts first and have them arrive at the same time. (not logistically easy since most companies have different lead times) Then arrange to have the manufacturer have a slotted time right after arrival, then ship. It could easily be a year before I see them sometimes.
Do y'all think the next SG will be for backers, maybe around 120k or for $, maybe with a $5 million goal?
I think 5 millions would make sense I guess.
$5mil won't be much of a stretch. ;) How about $6mil?
And I guess it also depends on how many stretch goals are still planned, and the additional expense of each goal
+1 dns12999, well put.
It's clear we have differing opinions on what should (or should not) happen as far as updates, SGs, etc. The comments have been respectful and it has been one of the more civilized conversations I've seen in a comments section. At the same time, I don't see one side convincing the other side to change their respective positions. May I propose we get back to what brought us together in the first place? Kittens of Mass Destruction (KMDs).
I for one am basking in the thought of sitting around the table in my backyard with some close friends, some good beer and lots of 'splodin kittehs.
@CREATOR: PLEASE UPDATE FAQ WITH HOW SO MANY BACKERS WILL AFFECT DELIVERY TIME.
Unless they have so many backers they don't care about being honest about the delivery date, who cares if they lose a few, right?
@Poz, please stop spamming them that here (and in full caps) and just message the creator directly.
@Poz yea that is rather annoying
@Rod, please keep your comments directed away from me and on topic.
I will be commenting that until it is answered.
@Chris, that sounds like a good name for an expansion :)
@Poz,
You're not being respectful and considerate by posting an all-caps thing like that over and over. A better way to make sure the creators see a message is to use the Contact Me link.
@Scott, if they make it I will buy it. :)
@Poz I understand your concern, but the comments is the wrong venue. Questions like that should probably go through the "Contact me" link on the main page, that is the correct method for getting an answer to a question. and to be honest I agree with @Rod's comment which was to my mind, on topic since you posted it in comments which made your question and where you were asking it part of the current topics.
As if I have not done that...
For a comment thread that moves as fast as this one, that is required for important questions. Most comments here are not requesting info that is required to decided if they want to keep being a backer. This would be an example of a comment that does not need the attention of the creator.
It is you that is being not being respectful or considerate by harassing me.
People like @Poz make me wish there was an ignore button next to each users name.
@Poz,
If you've already posted your question through the Contact Me link, then you most certainly don't need to spam it here in the comments. They are swamped with tons of email, so have patience.
+1 Joshua
@poz: There is a no spamming rule, stop behaving like a child and quit it or you will be reported.
I do have to give you guys all props for keeping this topic open though. Should bring more attention to my question. +1
More than 4 millions of dollars and no "french version" of the game, I cancel my pledge.
@Poz it took them about 5 days just to respond to all of the messages from the first day so they will eventually get to your message it just make take longer than you would like or expect that it should.
Also it should be common sense by now to everyone on here that they will be delayed a month or three due to the high volume of backers so I don't think that its necessary that they post it in the FAQ since again you just need to use some common sense.
@Poz, if you want to ask a question of the creators, use "Contact Me". There is an almost zero chance of them seeing your comment among 4500+ others, so all you're doing is frustrating yourself and annoying other backers. All caps and repeated posting isn't following that "Be respectful and considerate" guideline, and I've seen people get their accounts suspended for being too annoying. Better to lose one backer than dozens over an annoying comments section. Let's keep things positive, and send the questions where they belong, and where they'll be far more likely to be answered.
@somonflex oh come on .... I'm sure at least one card has a word that is French in origin .... doesn't that count ;)
@Joshua: it is hard to wrap one's head around just how many people 100,000+ really is too though. I get it, but a misunderstanding can be easy... especially since people aren't taking into account extra orders and post-production product.
This is not an already established game with existing inventory and supply chain. You are providing seed money and MAY get the game whenever it's made. (This isn't even a guarantee) I highly doubt even the creators or their printer have a firm date of delivery.
Simply put, you get it when you get it.
And also, if you've already sent a message, just be patient. There are at least 100,000 people who might be emailing them (even more if you count people who haven't backed yet but have questions), and I'm sure they're doing their best to reply to everyone. It just takes time. Plus, there are 22 more days to decide for sure about your pledge, so no need to panic.
@Poz
Why is is so important when you get the game? With probably 150k orders to fulfill by the tine this is done, it likely won't be at all of our doorsteps by July, but is it a deal breaker if you get it in September? Or November?
@Evan also when you consider that we still have 22 days left then it gets even more crazy because I estimate that if were to end today they would have well north of 250,000 units to package and ship out.
Now if you add on all of the new orders placed over the next 22 days, then we could easily see that increase to 400,000 or more.
Ok gang time for a new topic.
My question assumes there is going to be a delay, what I want is a new estimate.
Also, this comment section is the perfect place for such a question. This is where the creators have an open dialog with their backers. They should be reading these comments.
@Poz: no... it isn't. That's what we're trying to say. You ask the creator's in the contact section, thent ehy post an update in the faq.
A few months if okay, if it is 2016, I would have to rethink it.
What is heavier ? A deck of Plastic or Paper cards?
Does someone have a deck of the following cards?
Please weight 50 plastic cards VS 50 paper cards.
http://www.bicyclecards.com/products/playing-card/bicycle-prestige-standard-index
"Bicycle® Prestige cards offers unmatched durability and is the only 100% plastic card to offer a paper-like feel. Perfect for a neighborhood game or a professional tournament."
"Many professionals prefer the flexibility and durability of plastic cards.
The Bicycle® Prestige cards offers unmatched durability and is the only 100% plastic card to offer a paper-like feel.
Perfect for a neighborhood game or a professional tournament."
"This rare deck of cards was produced as a trial run using a new material by Bicycle and are 100% plastic Many professionals prefer the flexibility and durability of plastic cards
Bicycle prestige offers unmatched durability and is the only 100% plastic card to offer a paper-like fee"
@Scott: Bunnies, where do you stand on bunnies?
You are wrong.
@Joshua
Exactly. Even if they could give a good estimate based on the number of backers they have / expect, things can still change. Right now they may expect to print 500,000 decks. Maybe there's a huge surge and they get to 750,000 and due to prior time commitments from the printer it takes a few extra months.
So, the real question you have to ask yourself is, when do I no longer back? Is September okay? If they delay to December would I still purchase? What about next March? For me, I'll just get it whenever it shows up and be happy with it.
@Eric A,
I'm the same. Doesn't matter to me when the game shows up. I know it likely won't be in July, and that's ok by me.
Your right Eric, they should keep their estimate delivery time up to date as this project moves along.
I am not sure at what point I would back out. I think mid 2016, but I would stick around for a few more days to sleep on it before I back out.
I have had projects almost a year late on delivery time. If you believe in the project and product then time frame should never be a factor in whether you continue to back or not.
@Al
I think Bicycle bought the KEM playing cards production and brand from KEM some time ago. I think KEM just sells them the plastic now so that's probably just a different branding of the same thing. As far as the weight, I don't have a digital scale (or two decks of cards) with me here at the office, but they're roughly equivalent. I *think* the plastic weighs slightly less and seems lighter to handle, but it's not an appreciable difference.
@Kyly T,
Same here. I'm still waiting on some projects about a year and a half later...
Anyway, I officially apologise for annoying some of you. Sorry.
I believe this relatively long segmented discussion will suffice for a few days and will hopefully get the creators attention.
If plastic is less, that means less shipping charges when you multiply it by 500,000+ decks!
Plastic might equal savings. But I don't know the weight so I can't be sure.
I just know PAPER is very HEAVY!
@Al Calavicci,
Plastic might be lighter, but is it cheaper? Is the savings on shipping more than the expense of switching to plastic? I don't know, but I'd welcome input from someone who might. I know that KEM cards are a fair bit more expensive than their paper counterparts.
Actually, one project is about to be 2 years away from when the Kickstarter finished. Hope I'll get that one soon.
Stretch Goal - Update the FAQ with questions you have been receiving so people can stop speculating.
lol @ john
@Kyly: I still have projects that I haven't received yet(not even the refund I was told told I would get for one, the other the creator ignores every comment/email/Facebook message. Refund was promised back in Nov, project funded 1.5 years prior to that)
Plastic is generally about $5-6 more per deck, looking around.
http://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/custom-blank-card-traditional-size.html
Even if their printer had it as a $4 premium, it's still going to dwarf any freight savings.
Man the bigger this community got the more fights have broken out back before we were 100 000 everyone was so nice to each other now i come back and every ones fighting this is no good lets just change the subject and start commenting fast so the negative gets pushed down we should be really worried about when this game ships the populations of cats will be droping drastically!
New stretch goal: "You will get your stretch goal at $5 million" ;-)
He is already making 80% profit. it cost very little to produces and ship two deck of cards.
I estimate costs at ~5 per backer with another $5 for shipping, and that is my high estimate.
So 25$ of every purchase might me pure profit. 70% goes into the owners wallet.
then can afford to pay a few more cents for a plastic upgrade!
We need some hard facts
1) weight of avg normal paper deck of cards
2) weight of avg normal plastic deck of cards
3) cost of manufacturing of paper
4) cost of manufacturing of plastic
5) % of backers that want plastic over paper
@Al - You are forgetting taxes and KS fees. I'm sure there is a lot more you're forgetting as well.
Ermm... we broke www.admagic.com. Sorry, AdMagic.
@Al: A lot of people don't really get just how much is going to be involved in getting this out the door. There will be profits, just not as much as people think.
@Jason Tice
That isn't a good thing for them! And here I was going to see what else they do. Hopefully they can get more bandwidth. It'd suck to be down for the rest of the month until their cap resets!
@Al, also credit card fees. Plus this is money split between the 3 creators of the project. Plus the massive cost of shipping which is probably subsidized for some people in the cost of the purchase. For Canada, shipping is only $5, which is dirt cheap. Can't ship anything for $5.
After a quick look...guess it wasn't 1.5 years back that it was funded...but just about a year back from when I was told I would get a refund. Those cards lived up to the plane they were named after though...so stealthy that they don't appear anywhere but on store shelves before backers got anything.
PLASTC http://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/custom-plastic-poker-cards-traditional-size.html
15000+ $7.40
VS
PAPER http://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/white-border-poker-size-cards.html
15000+ $1.40
So Plastic cost 5x more to make in this example.
However we are manufacturing magnitudes higher then listed on that site.
So it is reasonable for cards $1 per pack paper, $4 per pack plastic with scale of 500k packs
Projected costs of a $35 deck (Warning, only my guesstimate):
KS cut - 5% = $1.75
Credit card processing fees - 3-5% = $1.40
Pre-fulfilment survey and processing - 3-5% = $1.40
Actual card production on decent cards - $2/pack = $4
Instructions / box / packaging = $2
'Thing-of-incredible-delight' = $2 (may vary depending on where you buy your delights)
Freight to Partners = $.50
Postal packing and shipping first class = $4
Sales tax - 7% = $2.45 (avg amongst the states by pop. I'm guessing)
Fulfilment partner cut = $2 (best guess from Amazon's site)
==========
Revenue = $35 - $1.75 - $1.40 - $1.40 = $30.45
Costs = $4 + $2 + $2 + $.50 + $4 + $2.45 + $2 = $16.95
Profit per unit = $13.50 (39% of top line revenue)
The single decks are $15 cheaper, but only save about $5.25 in shipping and production costs. They're making less money per unit on the $20 / deck version compared to the $35 for two version.
The profits on this project are massive. To say otherwise is silly.
But lets get back to the facts and examples of paper vs plastic. Any other examples will be great!
@Al
Are you trying to get your main account banned from the comment section from another top10 KS project? ;)
Doesn't kickstarter take 10%, that is what I always assumed... Do they say anywhere?
STOP your whinny ass's, it's there money!!!!! You paid for witch ever goal chosen, if there is more great. And if they want to make a couple dollars, we have no say. ENJOY what your getting Greedy f&@k's
@Poz: It's 5% https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
@Poz between KS fees and credit card processing fees it comes to about 10%
Why are people so opposed to these guys making money?
Next stretch goal, fixing admagic so the cards can be printed.
KS takes 5%. Credit Card fees take another 3-5% depending on the card. Assume a 4% average. Plus, with a project this massive they will outsource the end of campaign surveys, which I haven't gotten a firm estimate on but seems to also be in the 3-5% realm for a low cost project like this.
If there's one thing I've learned from backing KSers and having run my own, it's that guessing costs for another business is usually futile. :-)
Excluding extra fees and ect.*
@Rod,
Seriously. I hope they make TONS of money.
Also, they have their own overheads, such as bandwidth for the Oatmeal, and this is 3 people's livelihood. I don't think any of them are extremely wealthy by any means. So I'm happy to support them here. Other Kickstarter's are really not making much profit. Other Kickstarters are just basically promotion for the product itself.
@BruceP, word of upness!
They will make a profit but not 80% profit.
It will be a lot closer to 40 or 50% which is still a pretty good profit margin.
That's capitalism guys, it is awesome that people can still make fortune off a good idea. THis should spur others into doing the same and making the gaming industry great.
and don't forget packaging and mailing logistics, which from other KS projects is a total nightmare. Somebody's got to attach all those addresses to the boxes. Make sure the right reward is going to the right person, and mail them.
I like when owners of projects give me refunds.
Kickstarter backers should remember at ANY time (before or after the project ends) the project creator can give you a refund and remove you from the backer list.
I got booted from the Coolest Cooler. Which I should of because I always shared creditable information. When the creator of a product goes on national TV the day before the project closes and tells everyone the shipment time is unchanged, it is an obvious deception. And we are starting to see that as the Coolest Cooler product progresses. I still have a few backup accounts I can comment with on that project, but I am waiting for it to explode!
It is our job to discuss all aspects of a project.
Kickstarter high profile failure list is long, for example
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine/
More discussion should be done about money. It is responsible. Kickstarter doesn't care about us (they still profit from failure or fraud) so it is our job to police the projects.
Profits aren't allowed now, remember, this is Obama's America now! Profits= bad
And then you have to account for miss shipments and loses , there are so many hidden costs involved. It's not as simple as many seem to think.
I remember when I was in school and worked in a large box retailer. I mentioned something along the lines of "I don't want the customer to just think we're here to make more money." My boss said (on the floor) "Attention customers! We are here to make money! If we don't make money we will no longer be here for you to shop at!"
At that moment my entire outlook of business changed. I always knew businesses had to make profit to keep running, and that you should shop at places you like. But it really just 'clicked'. If I like what you sell, I don't mind giving you a few bucks to keep selling it.
With this much money and such a large target audience they may want to make sure their legal work is covered. It is probably a relatively small amount, but it is an example of some initial costs they will have.
Plus there are three of them so they need to split it. Then income tax... Unless that is just in my country.
I wont be enough to retire on, at least at this point (maybe in 22 days).
What is important is the long term success of their game.
How are KS proceeds taxed? I'm sure not very closely watched by the IRS, and I bet a lot go unpaid completely, but hopefully not a top10 project.
Oooh don't mess with the irs!
Also, can you imagine trying to negotiate with Printing companies?? "oh! you're exploding kittens?? oh yes, it will be VERY pricey to print your game... we ask for minimum 30% of profits...." The second any printing company hear's they need 109,000 copies of the game they will know its exploding kittens if they are savvy.... But they won't want to lose the contract. Ugh. Horrible. I'd hate to try to negotiate that.
@Poz: You're quite right. There are a lot of little things and miscellaneous overhead to account for too. Simply keeping track of it all is probably a logistics nightmare...
Kickstarter is required to report the payments that it makes to project creators to the IRS especially for projects that have a significant payment.
The company that receives the money would then need to show the IRS how much it has cost them to produce and ship out the product to the buyers and that would be subtracted from the funds that they received to determine how much taxes they have to pay on the funds.
@Evan and someone has to be paid for that to...
Has any one thought that they may have already started printing some of the decks? Just a thought.
Not really, they could use a number of printing company's to speed up the process... Also, I am pretty sure it is illegal to charge more to specific company so blatantly. Also, with such a large amount of orders the economics of scare are much better. There are larger company that make larger orders. Exploding kittens is small compared to them.
Last question would be, would you want to be the sales person that lost 100k+ order because you wanted to get a few extra % profit?
Exploding Kittens have the power in negotiating that.
@Cal that would be the smart thing for them to do and it could easily be done on a 60 day payment term since they can show the company that they will be able to pay it in full within 60 days.
Yes, make no mistake about it, at the negotiating table EK will have the leverage. This a massive order for suppliers that do custom runs. I mean, they wouldn't be able to get Bicycle to do it or anything, but every small company would be fighting for the opportunity if allowed.
I don't think that they will be using multiple printing companies. It would exponentially increase the likelihood of problems.
Yeah, multiple printing companies is just asking for trouble.
Also, doubt they would have started the decks yet. The printing company would most likely want to do it all in a single run or maybe a few runs at most. They'll be waiting for the final count before they spin up the machines. Plus, especially for orders this large, there is most likely a waiting period.
Not exactly the same, but in electronics you order your bulk components several quarters ahead of time usually. If I wanted to make 100,000 radios I'd have to order all of the parts first and have them arrive at the same time. (not logistically easy since most companies have different lead times) Then arrange to have the manufacturer have a slotted time right after arrival, then ship. It could easily be a year before I see them sometimes.
Look at that backer total go! Crazy!
I feel 140k is where it might end up.
Wow 110k backers and 22days to go... never doubt the power of kittens