Morning kittens. After a pretty mild January, Calgary has finally decided to have a winter... Zem would be loving this. I, am not. ;)
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-05T09:20:56-05:00
Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised to find out anybody outside of us and occasional friends from the campaign has read any of this in the past 2 years now. The Litter Box also has been proven not completely secure, but seeing as it's more of a desert wasteland, if you're really afraid, it's safer than Fort Knox.
`
Although this is the easiest method right now by far. We could also potentially make a Slack group like for BvB and Tricksters, but then it'd be super confusing where we were talking about something. Probably not that big of an issue though. If we switch platforms for that specific line of conversation, Slack is probably the best option.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-05T09:28:54-05:00
I like the Slack idea better than the Litter Box. That way, I can get push notifications when someone posts to it. Has anyone had a chance to look at the files I uploaded over the weekend? So far I can see that @Zem has weighed in.
Geist de la Muerte Gatito 2018-02-05T09:47:43-05:00
*sigh* Just a suggestion folks. Nothing more.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-05T09:50:34-05:00
@Geist, noted. I will not post any new content on the public site. Just so you know, if everyone agrees that we should use the litter box, I will. I'm just discussing options right now. It's not meant as a criticism of anyone. I see way too much piracy on the web as it is.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-05T10:07:22-05:00
As per people trying to steal our idea, et al, I wouldn't be too concerned. We're only in the baby steps version so far, nothing has really solidly been layed out, no assets of any kind to worry about yet, and we have a public record of our discussion, who was involved, where and when the ideas came out, so there is an inherent protection right there, sort of. I think for ease of sharing ideas right here works the best for me. If it turns out to be too arduous for anyone then we can move it to some where more secure. I think when it gets to needing more structure then the dropbox idea will also work well. Just my $0.02, this is the beginning "fun" part, lets let it be that for now. ;)
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-05T11:01:36-05:00
BaKhan, I agree. We may eventually want to move it to Slack, but for now, it's much easier just to keep it a fun part of our daily discussion. More creative then, anyways, we might just think up something funny and unserious and throw it in, and it turns out to be a great idea!
...
actually, that's pretty much how this game idea started!
Mike Kabala 2018-02-05T11:10:20-05:00
I do agree with one thing. Once we get some actual artwork, I don't want to be placing that in the current location. That will be the first actual branding asset that we have. Someone may be able to come up with a playable version of the game without the artwork, but it will always have an unfinished feel. Once that awesome artwork is added, it changes into a REAL game. The same goes for the rulebook (which, I hope SOMEONE is working on.)
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-05T11:46:51-05:00
Maybe the artwork should go on the LitterBox. Not sure how we'll get that done, though, did anyone who has any artistic ability whatsoever stay after the campaign?
`
I still say if this becomes a real, viable game, ask TheOatmeal if he'll do some art for it, even if just like the box art or advertisements or something, it'd be hilarious and amazing!
Speaking of which, what are they working on now? Are they developing yet a new game?
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-05T12:28:31-05:00
I'm working on the rule book. I also started on a prototype game piece with my bandsaw. I'm going to use it as an outline for a few more carts, then use my rotary tool to finish it up
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-05T12:31:08-05:00
As far as where to discuss and develop this as it progresses, I think a combination of Slack and Dropbox is a good idea
Geist de la Muerte Gatito 2018-02-05T14:43:09-05:00
Ok. I think I got another interview for a part time job. The hours suck but it's in D.C. and hopefully that means more money and more importantly, steady money.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-05T14:51:03-05:00
DC?? Aren't you in Florida?
Geist de la Muerte Gatito 2018-02-05T16:09:17-05:00
Florida? No. I've lived in the D.C. area all of my life. When I get my house next year I will probably live in Baltimore. More affordable.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-05T16:30:53-05:00
Geist, you have the opportunity, and yet you're staying somewhere with the same, if not colder, climate?!
Man, you could move to sunny Florida, just 10 miles from Disney World, and you're just passing it all up! ;)
Geist de la Muerte Gatito 2018-02-06T04:59:38-05:00
Morning kittens.
Question: How does one win Blackest Friday? Do you win by collecting the most stuff or/and trampling the most players? I assume that you can knock people out of the game as one way of winning. Maybe bonus points for players who have coupons?
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T06:35:12-05:00
I think we were going to draw certain items to put on our shopping lists, and the first person to get all of their items and leave wins.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-06T08:20:33-05:00
Morning kits.
@Geist, you win Blackest Friday by being the first person to purchase all items on your list. Everyone's list is different, but some items show up on more than one list, Mayhem ensues.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-06T09:04:43-05:00
Morning kittens!
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-06T09:06:43-05:00
Yep, thats what I was seeing as the winning condition as well, the first player to complete their shopping list.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T10:11:55-05:00
CB, is there only one of each item? Because then it just turns into a bloodbath and nobody will ever win. But yeah, maybe there could be one or two items that only have one in stock, but have a good chance of being on two people's lists...
@Zem, that's up to us to decide. I think LZ is the main person working on the rules, so we should ask him about item quantities. It might be interesting to pplay around with quantities, so some items would be common and others would be rare.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-06T10:25:45-05:00
In my head I was thinking that there were 10 or so items, each player needed to get 4 of them, so the chances of overlap are there but not so much that everyone needed to get exactly the same items. There does need to be conflict or the games loses its theme.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-06T10:26:17-05:00
Also, I'd like to know how we're going to distribute the items. Do the items need to be placed in specific locations? If so, how will we handle the game mecnanics. We could use tokens, but it would require a LOT of unique tokens and game setup could become tedious if we need to manually place each one.
Alternatively, we could print tiny items representing each item on the game board itself. This would make item placement less flexible though. Perhaps a combination of the two with some items in fixed locations and others in variable locations. Each of the variable items would then need to be placed on the board during game setup.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-06T10:27:03-05:00
... we could print tiny icons ...
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-06T10:46:18-05:00
@CB, I was thinking that there would be locations on the tile (numbers, icons, what have you) and a deck of "setup" cards that would have preset items to locations identification. That way set up would still be fast (something I think is an important feature) and still varied. Combine that with each player having a random shopping list (also drawn from a random deck of cards, the cards would have all the items a player needs to get and could be tailored to ensure there is enough overlap of items). That should give it lots of replayability, and prevent giving it the same same feeling. Hopefully.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-06T10:48:04-05:00
Oh, also, each item would have a token to represent it. You would place these tokens in your cart as you pick them up. If we are going for 3D shopping carts they could have little slots that would hold the tokens in place. If we were instead going for tokens to represent the carts, you could simply stack the item tokens on the cart token.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-06T10:55:23-05:00
Another thing to nail down, is how movement will work. Can you move diagonally? Will it have to be orthogonal movement (straight lines only)? This will make a major difference how many movement points/actions/whatever we want to call it, would be given per player per turn.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T11:02:37-05:00
Setup should probably be as easy and simple as possible, people don't like having to work to set up a game at all, though flexibility is also important. We need to make it somehow so that people can set it up without thinking, but if they want to, there's also the room to strategize.
And that's where this all gets tough.
`
Also, on carts, alot depends on production method. 3D would mean we'd need full access to a 3D printer for a very long time, maybe even just buy one ourselves. Plus, that seems like it'd be much harder to ship and very likely to break, with no easy replacement.
However, that would be way more fun than just tokens, which also would become irrelevant if you stacked things on top of them anyways. Maybe just keep them in your play area off the board in this case.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-06T11:07:47-05:00
That could work. Right now we have 128 shelf locations, 6 table locations, 4 Cosmetic locations, 4 Pharmacy locations, 4 Customer Service locations, and 4 Cashier's Counter locations, for a total of 150. I think certain items (i.e. perfume) should be restricted to certain areas. If we added cold medicine, it could be "behind the counter" at the pharmacy.
Of course, we can manipulate the size and location of any of these elements to facilitate game mechanics.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T11:56:51-05:00
Behind the counter cold medicine? Either you're really good friends with your doctor, or that's a really harsh cold! But the Pharma areas do often have stuff outside, that could be where that is.
`
And yeah, that's the big thing is that we can completely change how the entire game works by fiddling with these rules. That's why we definitely have to come to some conclusions on them, but then again...
Hey, we could have different versions of the game, different rules and setup options! One for quick and easy, one for customization. Maybe even different movement or player mechanics as well.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-06T12:13:30-05:00
@Zem, they keep it behind the counter because it contains pseudoephedrine and they don't want people using it to make crystal meth.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T12:40:47-05:00
"Beginner" and "advanced" rulesets... I like it. Then you can have a quick or long game.
I was thinking about the item tokens last night. They definitely need to be tokens, so there's a physical representation of the items on the board. Cards on the board would be too obstructive, so tokens work best. This is important for things like "Empty Package", which causes the item to be put back in its original place.
Item quantities: I was thinking that we should include a die with a number of faces equal to the max number of players, but then there can never be more of each item than one less than the number of people playing (no more than 3 Lettuce Field Children in a 4 player game, for example).
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T12:45:09-05:00
Oh, the other part of my thought on tokens was that, once obtained, they would be placed on the table in front of the player. We could have a dashboard for each player, whereupon they can keep track of their list, items, power-ups, weapons, etc.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-06T12:49:01-05:00
I can see the Print and Play having an entire sheet of little tiny item tokens. In the actual game, they should be cardboard, wood, ot injection molded plastic.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T12:53:27-05:00
For shopping list generation, I have that at the beginning of game setup, the players will take a total of ten cards from the items deck. This will represent the ten items in play for that game. Taking turns, each player will then draw four cards at random from the ten, make a note of the four, and then mix the four back into the ten before passing the ten to the next player. That way, we can add expansions, including items, without affecting the duration of the game, and keep it so there's always competition. While one player is generating their list, the others can be rolling for how many of each item there is.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T12:54:10-05:00
CB, I totally agree with you on item token composition
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T13:01:38-05:00
Oh, and I have a friend who's a good artist. He used to paint the sawblade trophies for the zombie shoot I used to host every year.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-06T13:15:40-05:00
Once an item token shape is agreed upon, we can add it to a corner of the image square on the item card.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T14:04:38-05:00
That's a good idea. Alternatively, we could have a smaller image of the item on the token. Or, we could have it so we only have 10 shapes and have an extra token so when the ten item cards are put in the Master List area, the players put one of the shapes on the item card to indicate what shape is which item.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T16:53:03-05:00
For tokens, the best idea would be those normal punch-out cardboard ones in everything. They're easy, most likely very cheap, and especially easy to ship and assemble, with little to no risk of damage with use. Circular obviously has seemed to work best with all sorts of games in the past.
`
LZ, that's a great idea for item selection in the game! Limits what's on the board, keeps what you have random yet part of the total drawn set, and makes completely random competition! Though I don't understand why 1 fewer tokens than players is helpful.
`
And should there be a way of changing your needed items? Maybe under certain circumstances or something, you may want or need to change them, and it could be a good idea to have on board. Though I'm not sure of any of the specifics.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T17:21:37-05:00
Zem, setting a maximum number of each item to one less than the number of players is helpful because then it drastically reduces the chances of someone simply being able to waltz in and out without any conflict.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T17:23:41-05:00
So it's not that there would only be three total tokens for a four player game, but a maximum of three TV's, three dolls, three gaming consoles, etc. for a four player game.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T17:32:51-05:00
Here's what I'm thinking for item tokens: they should all be round, with a shape printed on each. The tokens will then be used as outlined below: the players put an extra token on each item card in the "Master List" area. The corresponding tokens are placed on the board in their appropriate area, in the determined amount. That will allow for expanding the items without necessitating more tokens. We'd only have to determine the maximum number of players and create that number of tokens with each of ten shapes on them.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T17:57:09-05:00
LZ, that's all working out pretty great, good job!
And ah, okay. I knew it wasn't player tokens, but I couldn't find why there would be a limit on items, though that makes sense. Still, there's a fair chance somebody will have a full cart of conflict-free items. That's why I was wondering, because there'd still be plenty of conflict, at least I assume, and I guess I assume aggressive players, from them fighting eachother to delay one another. Though I guess that's all stuff we'll figure out later on in playtesting.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T18:04:08-05:00
That still leaves the complicated Perfume Dept. Lady. Quite possibly my favorite character, but one that could end up being very complicated in controlling, as an autonomous NPC that nobody would want to move closer to them. We should figure her out as well, if nobody already has and I'm not just being a slow dummy.
Clearly, we wouldn't want to reserve a person to playing her, so she has to have rules for autonomous movement that nobody could contend. Also, she should definitely have a restricted area (the department), though that's obvious and easy to set up.
`
So assuming players are moving her after each round, how far should she move (probably best worked out in testing), how does she move, stuff like that. I'm imagining after every round someone (hopefully who shouldn't matter since it shouldn't be contendable) moves her a set distance toward a player. For this reason there should definitely be items within her domain, so she has a chance to catch them.
But as well, there are things like ties; if two people are an equal distance, whom does she follow? The one with more things? The one moving into her region if the other is leaving and not worth chasing? That and far more are reasons she could get very complicated fast and end up not be worth putting in the game, or at least not the "beginner" mode.
`
Okay, sorry for writing a dang essay, but seeing as I literally just wrote one in German, it makes sense why I'm thinking and writing as such. Dang it, I'm still doing it, aren't I?
It's midnight, I'll just go to bed now...
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T18:06:05-05:00
Indeed. I also have a formula in the rules for deciding number of available items based on number of players. Of course, the formula won't be in the final version; we'll just spell it out in the rules
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-06T18:07:48-05:00
Ooh, should she have a chance to catch someone moving close to her, like the En Pessant move in chess? Otherwise, it'd be too easy to avoid her. Maybe roll the dice when someone has to cross within a certain distance.
`
And something is for sure, you'll have to move slower in the perfume dept. because of the toxic air effect. Maybe 1/2 as fast? (roll 1-2=1 action, 2-3=2, etc)
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-06T18:17:04-05:00
1/2 speed in perfume dept. Love it.
Perfume Lady will probably be a start-of-turn card. You draw the card and lose a turn due to the toxic miasma she sprays in your face. I can't decide whether the card should be passed onto another player or shuffled back into the deck, though
WOO! Winter storm warning for Calgary tonight. And Snow Day(2.0) announced for the office...but does a version 2.0 count when only one person wasn't in the office(that being the person who sent out the email...on Sunday night...when 90% of the staff can't access their email?)
Clarification: but does a version 2.0 count when only one person wasn't in the office for version 1.0
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-07T14:09:35-05:00
Come to think of it, snow days might not even effect me, even if Berlin got an unnatural amount of snow, since I live in the same building. Then again, like 1/3 of the students commute, but who knows. Guess I'll never get to.
`
You know, I'm not really all that upset about not getting any snow or real cold, but I am annoyed at Nature for playing such a horrible prank on me as to NOW give my area the winter I want.
Geist de la Muerte Gatito 2018-02-07T15:53:19-05:00
Kittens. I've just received some bad news. I just lost my job. I had no idea that the company was even considering letting people go. To make matters worse, they hired someone in my department 3 weeks ago but didn't lay her off. So it looks like I was a fuck up. You will excuse me if I go offline for a little while.
*sigh* I hate job hunting. I really do.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-07T16:12:20-05:00
Oh, Geist! That's terrible news! I wish you the best of luck with the job hunt. Please let us know when you've found something. If you ever need to vent, we're here for you!
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-07T17:25:05-05:00
@Geist, I'm so sorry to hear that! I hope that you're able to find something thats going to be stable and appreciates having you there! Fingers crossed for you!
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-08T09:15:33-05:00
Morning kittens. I can't believe I made it in to work today! We must have had close to 10" of snow overnight and minimal road clean up. Couldn't see any lines on the road at all, roads we normally drive 50mph on were down to 30... it took me roughly an hour to make a 20 minute drive... going home will be insane! Sigh. Gotta love the winter... right Zem?
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-08T12:02:55-05:00
Now I find out we're supposed to be getting another 6 inches throughout the day. Pray for me kittens!
@Geist: I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully the job hunting goes smooth(and quick)
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-09T08:02:46-05:00
OH MY GOD it's done! Tests here are literally just a full day of testing, and that's why I've been busy most of this week.
But lo, the deed is done, time for a ton of food and beer and stuff to celebrate and relax!
Mike Kabala 2018-02-09T10:21:02-05:00
Morning kittens. I'm on a road trip to Councl Bluffs, IA and have fallen behind on the conversation here. I'll do mhy best to get caught up in a few days so I can contribute meaningfully again. I have begun adding location codes to the shelves.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-09T10:21:31-05:00
Ah, the joys of reading German.
"Oh, this word in the middle here is a verb. Wait, it makes no sense, I have a complete sentence on either side of this comma. Does it come in the first Hauptsatz or the other side?
(like when you have "a sentence, and another sentence)
Okay, yeah, I can't find a place for it. does it apply to this preposition that I also can't figure out? Okay, you know what? Those two words don't exist; I'm going to re-read this without them. Yup... makes no sense at all... How 'bout if I... no, you know what? Google translate."
;)
Mike Kabala 2018-02-09T10:23:44-05:00
I'd prefer the tokens to be rectangular or elliptical to better fit on the shelves.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-09T10:24:41-05:00
Hi, CB!
Council Bluffs? Man, if I were still in Nebraska, you'd be about 45 minutes' drive from me, and I'd love to have been able to meet up with you! Well... unless you decide to travel overseas right now, that's not really an option, so just... I guess look over the Missouri River and shout "Hi!" for me! ;)
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-09T10:27:02-05:00
Ah, yeah, I guess they'd fit better as non-circles, but still, that's less traditional and just a tad less sightly and easy to work with. I dunno, just my quick thoughts on that. Circular punch-out cardboard tokens are really common items, rectangles are also a bit common, but not as widely used, so they might look a bit odd or handle differently.
Mike Kabala 2018-02-09T10:30:47-05:00
@Geist, sorry to hear your news. Job hunting is never fun. Wish I could send some recruiters your way. I get calls all the time when I AM employed. Feel free to vent here if you needto.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-09T11:03:34-05:00
Yea-... oh, whoa, WHOA! Geist, I'm so sorry! Man, I was so busy with my own business the past couple days that I didn't even see that!
`
So sorry, Geist, I know this is really hard, but you know we're all here for you for this very reason. Best of luck finding a new job, especially with that new licensing you just earned, that should probably widen your prospects a good bit! Though it would have been quadrupally nice now if they'd had that part-time job at the end.
But yeah, either way, don't worry, I've got your back. I've got a solid shot of booze for ya, I know it's probably helped you a good bit through this tough situation already.
In a nutshell, I know this is absolute bullshit, but I know you shouldn't have too much trouble at all finding something new, especially with all those aspirations you've been realizing recently. In fact, this could very well turn out to be a major blessing for you, opening up all sorts of new opportunities!
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-09T15:52:27-05:00
Square tokens work. I still think each one should have a shape printed on it for reasons already explained
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-09T16:14:35-05:00
Yeah, I will say that no matter the shape of the token, it should be clearly a specific item.
Lord Zombitten 2018-02-09T17:20:53-05:00
Well, what I had in mind was that we'd only have, say, 60 tokens. That would make for a 6 player game (6 of each token item token x 10 possible items). One of the tokens is put on the item card in the Master List area of the playing space. The Master List shows all the items up for grabs, even though not every player will have some on their individual list. That way, we'd only ever have to worry about making those 60 tokens, and we can add all kinds of items without bogging down setup time with hunting down the exact right token for the relatively few items in play.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-09T17:57:19-05:00
So when an item on someone's list isn't on the master list, what do they do? Redraw until everything they have to find is in the store? Or realistically go to another store and hope they have it? I mean... I doubt people would want THAT much realism in a game! ;)
Mike Kabala 2018-02-10T09:46:33-05:00
So ... the tokens are generic and the Master List is the key? In that case, we could use tokens with numbers and letters on them and use the number of letter on the token to look up what it is on the Master List.
While this simplifies the game mechanics, it doesn't provide a graphically rich environment for game play. If we went with this, I think one of our Stretch Goals should be to replace these generic tokens with tokens that are unique to each item. Ex. The Lettuce Field token would look like a doll and the Fruitcake token would look like an actual fruitcake. This would require a lot more token design, hence the need for a Stretch Goal to make it worth our while to put forth the effort.
Rebecca Flowers 2018-02-10T19:43:42-05:00
I’m still waiting for mine. Have they all been shipped?
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-11T07:35:39-05:00
Rebecca, are you sure you have the right campaign? Exploding Kittens? Because they shipped like 2 1/2 years ago.
If you really haven't gotten your Exploding Kittens deck, try emailing support@explodingkittens.com `
Everyone else here, that's still the email right? Almost certain that's still the one to email for troubles.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-11T16:34:11-05:00
I want to buy a German version of EK, but the link doesn't have any way to order it (and if it's sold out, it also doesn't say that), but also seeing several people in the update comments saying they're just getting the English version through a company in their country, it makes me nervous to get it even if they had stock.
Master list = the ten (or fewer) cards used to construct the personal list. So there's no chance of having an item on the personal list that isn't on the master list. I'll see if I can put together a rough drawing of the game layout as I see it to make it more clear. Look for a dropbox link
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-13T09:08:44-05:00
Morning kittens.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-13T09:11:02-05:00
@LZ, wouldn't it make more sense to have a separate set of tokens for each store? If you wanted to put them together to make a bigger game, it would be hard with generic tokens imo. I was thinking themed tokens for each type of store.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-13T10:03:00-05:00
Haha, that's a good point, this game lends itself nicely to expansions and new versions, just have a different kind of store!
Afternoon kittens...who's ready for Valentine's Day?
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-13T16:48:02-05:00
@Elan, lol, as ready as any married man can be... got the gift w/creative packaging, got the nice card, going to grab some flowers on the way home tomorrow... so yeah, I think I'm ready... ;) You?
Elan Lee 2018-02-13T17:10:55-05:00
@Rod this will be my first Vday spent married so I'm pretty excited.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-13T17:50:11-05:00
@Elan, that is awesome! Congratulations! Remember that the little simple things, done by you, make the biggest impression! Make her favorite dinner, or give her a nice massage, or do both! One of the things that I like to do, is put her towel and bath robe in the dryer, get her to have a bath, then give her the warmed up towel and bath robe, then give her a nice massage! It works out quite well for me... ;) I hope that you guys have a wonderful time!
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-13T17:57:37-05:00
BaKhan, I'm as ready as ready as any single man can be. Not really an big holiday for me. ;)
`
Hi, Elan! Great to see you! How's it going? Happy Valentino's day, that sounds exciting! Especially when you say Vday, then it sounds like you've already got the beachheads planned.
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-13T18:23:46-05:00
Yes... I really did just say "an holiday". How did I not see that?! I bring myself nothing but shame.
Elan Lee 2018-02-13T19:39:40-05:00
It's really great to see everyone here. The whole team has been working towards a big update tomorrow (that we'll tell you about before anyone else) but as I was preparing the update, I wanted to quickly pop my head in and say that you kittens are the greatest. Always makes me smile to read through the community that continues to thrive here.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-13T23:19:29-05:00
@Elan, excited for the update! We’re always glad to see you pop in too! We would most likely never have made each other’s acquaintance any other way, so thanks to you for introducing me to so many great people!
Micah "Zem the Mattress" Philson 2018-02-14T02:50:34-05:00
Yeah, no kidding!
It makes everyone's day when you check in, Elan! And of course we still thrive here! Actually... there may be no way out, now.
Anyways, can't wait for the update!
Mike Kabala 2018-02-14T09:35:44-05:00
Morning kittens. I'm back in Charlotte, NC today. Looks like all of the active KS campaigns that I had pledged completed funding while I was away. Now I get to go back to waiting for my goodies to arrive.
... unless Elan's BIG ANNOUNCEMENT is another KS that we can all jump on ...
<3 <3 <3
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-14T09:48:24-05:00
Morning kittens.
Rod "BaKhan" Mitchell 2018-02-14T09:49:35-05:00
@CB, yep, hyped about what the new update may be! As long as it isn't for a competitive shopping game... ;) Also, welcome home! ;)
Morning kittens. After a pretty mild January, Calgary has finally decided to have a winter... Zem would be loving this. I, am not. ;)
Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised to find out anybody outside of us and occasional friends from the campaign has read any of this in the past 2 years now. The Litter Box also has been proven not completely secure, but seeing as it's more of a desert wasteland, if you're really afraid, it's safer than Fort Knox.
`
Although this is the easiest method right now by far. We could also potentially make a Slack group like for BvB and Tricksters, but then it'd be super confusing where we were talking about something. Probably not that big of an issue though. If we switch platforms for that specific line of conversation, Slack is probably the best option.
I like the Slack idea better than the Litter Box. That way, I can get push notifications when someone posts to it. Has anyone had a chance to look at the files I uploaded over the weekend? So far I can see that @Zem has weighed in.
*sigh* Just a suggestion folks. Nothing more.
@Geist, noted. I will not post any new content on the public site. Just so you know, if everyone agrees that we should use the litter box, I will. I'm just discussing options right now. It's not meant as a criticism of anyone. I see way too much piracy on the web as it is.
As per people trying to steal our idea, et al, I wouldn't be too concerned. We're only in the baby steps version so far, nothing has really solidly been layed out, no assets of any kind to worry about yet, and we have a public record of our discussion, who was involved, where and when the ideas came out, so there is an inherent protection right there, sort of. I think for ease of sharing ideas right here works the best for me. If it turns out to be too arduous for anyone then we can move it to some where more secure. I think when it gets to needing more structure then the dropbox idea will also work well. Just my $0.02, this is the beginning "fun" part, lets let it be that for now. ;)
BaKhan, I agree. We may eventually want to move it to Slack, but for now, it's much easier just to keep it a fun part of our daily discussion. More creative then, anyways, we might just think up something funny and unserious and throw it in, and it turns out to be a great idea!
...
actually, that's pretty much how this game idea started!
I do agree with one thing. Once we get some actual artwork, I don't want to be placing that in the current location. That will be the first actual branding asset that we have. Someone may be able to come up with a playable version of the game without the artwork, but it will always have an unfinished feel. Once that awesome artwork is added, it changes into a REAL game. The same goes for the rulebook (which, I hope SOMEONE is working on.)
Maybe the artwork should go on the LitterBox. Not sure how we'll get that done, though, did anyone who has any artistic ability whatsoever stay after the campaign?
`
I still say if this becomes a real, viable game, ask TheOatmeal if he'll do some art for it, even if just like the box art or advertisements or something, it'd be hilarious and amazing!
Speaking of which, what are they working on now? Are they developing yet a new game?
I'm working on the rule book. I also started on a prototype game piece with my bandsaw. I'm going to use it as an outline for a few more carts, then use my rotary tool to finish it up
As far as where to discuss and develop this as it progresses, I think a combination of Slack and Dropbox is a good idea
Ok. I think I got another interview for a part time job. The hours suck but it's in D.C. and hopefully that means more money and more importantly, steady money.
DC?? Aren't you in Florida?
Florida? No. I've lived in the D.C. area all of my life. When I get my house next year I will probably live in Baltimore. More affordable.
Geist, you have the opportunity, and yet you're staying somewhere with the same, if not colder, climate?!
Man, you could move to sunny Florida, just 10 miles from Disney World, and you're just passing it all up! ;)
Morning kittens.
Question: How does one win Blackest Friday? Do you win by collecting the most stuff or/and trampling the most players? I assume that you can knock people out of the game as one way of winning. Maybe bonus points for players who have coupons?
I think we were going to draw certain items to put on our shopping lists, and the first person to get all of their items and leave wins.
Morning kits.
@Geist, you win Blackest Friday by being the first person to purchase all items on your list. Everyone's list is different, but some items show up on more than one list, Mayhem ensues.
Morning kittens!
Yep, thats what I was seeing as the winning condition as well, the first player to complete their shopping list.
CB, is there only one of each item? Because then it just turns into a bloodbath and nobody will ever win. But yeah, maybe there could be one or two items that only have one in stock, but have a good chance of being on two people's lists...
Morning kittens.
@Zem, that's up to us to decide. I think LZ is the main person working on the rules, so we should ask him about item quantities. It might be interesting to pplay around with quantities, so some items would be common and others would be rare.
In my head I was thinking that there were 10 or so items, each player needed to get 4 of them, so the chances of overlap are there but not so much that everyone needed to get exactly the same items. There does need to be conflict or the games loses its theme.
Also, I'd like to know how we're going to distribute the items. Do the items need to be placed in specific locations? If so, how will we handle the game mecnanics. We could use tokens, but it would require a LOT of unique tokens and game setup could become tedious if we need to manually place each one.
Alternatively, we could print tiny items representing each item on the game board itself. This would make item placement less flexible though. Perhaps a combination of the two with some items in fixed locations and others in variable locations. Each of the variable items would then need to be placed on the board during game setup.
... we could print tiny icons ...
@CB, I was thinking that there would be locations on the tile (numbers, icons, what have you) and a deck of "setup" cards that would have preset items to locations identification. That way set up would still be fast (something I think is an important feature) and still varied. Combine that with each player having a random shopping list (also drawn from a random deck of cards, the cards would have all the items a player needs to get and could be tailored to ensure there is enough overlap of items). That should give it lots of replayability, and prevent giving it the same same feeling. Hopefully.
Oh, also, each item would have a token to represent it. You would place these tokens in your cart as you pick them up. If we are going for 3D shopping carts they could have little slots that would hold the tokens in place. If we were instead going for tokens to represent the carts, you could simply stack the item tokens on the cart token.
Another thing to nail down, is how movement will work. Can you move diagonally? Will it have to be orthogonal movement (straight lines only)? This will make a major difference how many movement points/actions/whatever we want to call it, would be given per player per turn.
Setup should probably be as easy and simple as possible, people don't like having to work to set up a game at all, though flexibility is also important. We need to make it somehow so that people can set it up without thinking, but if they want to, there's also the room to strategize.
And that's where this all gets tough.
`
Also, on carts, alot depends on production method. 3D would mean we'd need full access to a 3D printer for a very long time, maybe even just buy one ourselves. Plus, that seems like it'd be much harder to ship and very likely to break, with no easy replacement.
However, that would be way more fun than just tokens, which also would become irrelevant if you stacked things on top of them anyways. Maybe just keep them in your play area off the board in this case.
That could work. Right now we have 128 shelf locations, 6 table locations, 4 Cosmetic locations, 4 Pharmacy locations, 4 Customer Service locations, and 4 Cashier's Counter locations, for a total of 150. I think certain items (i.e. perfume) should be restricted to certain areas. If we added cold medicine, it could be "behind the counter" at the pharmacy.
Of course, we can manipulate the size and location of any of these elements to facilitate game mechanics.
Behind the counter cold medicine? Either you're really good friends with your doctor, or that's a really harsh cold! But the Pharma areas do often have stuff outside, that could be where that is.
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And yeah, that's the big thing is that we can completely change how the entire game works by fiddling with these rules. That's why we definitely have to come to some conclusions on them, but then again...
Hey, we could have different versions of the game, different rules and setup options! One for quick and easy, one for customization. Maybe even different movement or player mechanics as well.
@Zem, they keep it behind the counter because it contains pseudoephedrine and they don't want people using it to make crystal meth.
"Beginner" and "advanced" rulesets... I like it. Then you can have a quick or long game.
I was thinking about the item tokens last night. They definitely need to be tokens, so there's a physical representation of the items on the board. Cards on the board would be too obstructive, so tokens work best. This is important for things like "Empty Package", which causes the item to be put back in its original place.
Item quantities: I was thinking that we should include a die with a number of faces equal to the max number of players, but then there can never be more of each item than one less than the number of people playing (no more than 3 Lettuce Field Children in a 4 player game, for example).
Oh, the other part of my thought on tokens was that, once obtained, they would be placed on the table in front of the player. We could have a dashboard for each player, whereupon they can keep track of their list, items, power-ups, weapons, etc.
I can see the Print and Play having an entire sheet of little tiny item tokens. In the actual game, they should be cardboard, wood, ot injection molded plastic.
For shopping list generation, I have that at the beginning of game setup, the players will take a total of ten cards from the items deck. This will represent the ten items in play for that game. Taking turns, each player will then draw four cards at random from the ten, make a note of the four, and then mix the four back into the ten before passing the ten to the next player. That way, we can add expansions, including items, without affecting the duration of the game, and keep it so there's always competition. While one player is generating their list, the others can be rolling for how many of each item there is.
CB, I totally agree with you on item token composition
Oh, and I have a friend who's a good artist. He used to paint the sawblade trophies for the zombie shoot I used to host every year.
Once an item token shape is agreed upon, we can add it to a corner of the image square on the item card.
That's a good idea. Alternatively, we could have a smaller image of the item on the token. Or, we could have it so we only have 10 shapes and have an extra token so when the ten item cards are put in the Master List area, the players put one of the shapes on the item card to indicate what shape is which item.
For tokens, the best idea would be those normal punch-out cardboard ones in everything. They're easy, most likely very cheap, and especially easy to ship and assemble, with little to no risk of damage with use. Circular obviously has seemed to work best with all sorts of games in the past.
`
LZ, that's a great idea for item selection in the game! Limits what's on the board, keeps what you have random yet part of the total drawn set, and makes completely random competition! Though I don't understand why 1 fewer tokens than players is helpful.
`
And should there be a way of changing your needed items? Maybe under certain circumstances or something, you may want or need to change them, and it could be a good idea to have on board. Though I'm not sure of any of the specifics.
Zem, setting a maximum number of each item to one less than the number of players is helpful because then it drastically reduces the chances of someone simply being able to waltz in and out without any conflict.
So it's not that there would only be three total tokens for a four player game, but a maximum of three TV's, three dolls, three gaming consoles, etc. for a four player game.
Here's what I'm thinking for item tokens: they should all be round, with a shape printed on each. The tokens will then be used as outlined below: the players put an extra token on each item card in the "Master List" area. The corresponding tokens are placed on the board in their appropriate area, in the determined amount. That will allow for expanding the items without necessitating more tokens. We'd only have to determine the maximum number of players and create that number of tokens with each of ten shapes on them.
LZ, that's all working out pretty great, good job!
And ah, okay. I knew it wasn't player tokens, but I couldn't find why there would be a limit on items, though that makes sense. Still, there's a fair chance somebody will have a full cart of conflict-free items. That's why I was wondering, because there'd still be plenty of conflict, at least I assume, and I guess I assume aggressive players, from them fighting eachother to delay one another. Though I guess that's all stuff we'll figure out later on in playtesting.
That still leaves the complicated Perfume Dept. Lady. Quite possibly my favorite character, but one that could end up being very complicated in controlling, as an autonomous NPC that nobody would want to move closer to them. We should figure her out as well, if nobody already has and I'm not just being a slow dummy.
Clearly, we wouldn't want to reserve a person to playing her, so she has to have rules for autonomous movement that nobody could contend. Also, she should definitely have a restricted area (the department), though that's obvious and easy to set up.
`
So assuming players are moving her after each round, how far should she move (probably best worked out in testing), how does she move, stuff like that. I'm imagining after every round someone (hopefully who shouldn't matter since it shouldn't be contendable) moves her a set distance toward a player. For this reason there should definitely be items within her domain, so she has a chance to catch them.
But as well, there are things like ties; if two people are an equal distance, whom does she follow? The one with more things? The one moving into her region if the other is leaving and not worth chasing? That and far more are reasons she could get very complicated fast and end up not be worth putting in the game, or at least not the "beginner" mode.
`
Okay, sorry for writing a dang essay, but seeing as I literally just wrote one in German, it makes sense why I'm thinking and writing as such. Dang it, I'm still doing it, aren't I?
It's midnight, I'll just go to bed now...
Indeed. I also have a formula in the rules for deciding number of available items based on number of players. Of course, the formula won't be in the final version; we'll just spell it out in the rules
Ooh, should she have a chance to catch someone moving close to her, like the En Pessant move in chess? Otherwise, it'd be too easy to avoid her. Maybe roll the dice when someone has to cross within a certain distance.
`
And something is for sure, you'll have to move slower in the perfume dept. because of the toxic air effect. Maybe 1/2 as fast? (roll 1-2=1 action, 2-3=2, etc)
1/2 speed in perfume dept. Love it.
Perfume Lady will probably be a start-of-turn card. You draw the card and lose a turn due to the toxic miasma she sprays in your face. I can't decide whether the card should be passed onto another player or shuffled back into the deck, though
Morning kittens.
Morning, indeed
Morning kittens.
Afternoon, everyone!
Has anyone else heard of this? https://www.sciencealert.com/chilling-drone-video-shows-a-disturbing-vision-of-an-ai-controlled-future All I could think was, damn, skynet is now...
WOO! Winter storm warning for Calgary tonight. And Snow Day(2.0) announced for the office...but does a version 2.0 count when only one person wasn't in the office(that being the person who sent out the email...on Sunday night...when 90% of the staff can't access their email?)
Clarification: but does a version 2.0 count when only one person wasn't in the office for version 1.0
Come to think of it, snow days might not even effect me, even if Berlin got an unnatural amount of snow, since I live in the same building. Then again, like 1/3 of the students commute, but who knows. Guess I'll never get to.
`
You know, I'm not really all that upset about not getting any snow or real cold, but I am annoyed at Nature for playing such a horrible prank on me as to NOW give my area the winter I want.
Kittens. I've just received some bad news. I just lost my job. I had no idea that the company was even considering letting people go. To make matters worse, they hired someone in my department 3 weeks ago but didn't lay her off. So it looks like I was a fuck up. You will excuse me if I go offline for a little while.
*sigh* I hate job hunting. I really do.
Oh, Geist! That's terrible news! I wish you the best of luck with the job hunt. Please let us know when you've found something. If you ever need to vent, we're here for you!
@Geist, I'm so sorry to hear that! I hope that you're able to find something thats going to be stable and appreciates having you there! Fingers crossed for you!
Morning kittens. I can't believe I made it in to work today! We must have had close to 10" of snow overnight and minimal road clean up. Couldn't see any lines on the road at all, roads we normally drive 50mph on were down to 30... it took me roughly an hour to make a 20 minute drive... going home will be insane! Sigh. Gotta love the winter... right Zem?
Now I find out we're supposed to be getting another 6 inches throughout the day. Pray for me kittens!
Morning kittens.
@Geist: I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully the job hunting goes smooth(and quick)
OH MY GOD it's done! Tests here are literally just a full day of testing, and that's why I've been busy most of this week.
But lo, the deed is done, time for a ton of food and beer and stuff to celebrate and relax!
Morning kittens. I'm on a road trip to Councl Bluffs, IA and have fallen behind on the conversation here. I'll do mhy best to get caught up in a few days so I can contribute meaningfully again. I have begun adding location codes to the shelves.
Ah, the joys of reading German.
"Oh, this word in the middle here is a verb. Wait, it makes no sense, I have a complete sentence on either side of this comma. Does it come in the first Hauptsatz or the other side?
(like when you have "a sentence, and another sentence)
Okay, yeah, I can't find a place for it. does it apply to this preposition that I also can't figure out? Okay, you know what? Those two words don't exist; I'm going to re-read this without them. Yup... makes no sense at all... How 'bout if I... no, you know what? Google translate."
;)
I'd prefer the tokens to be rectangular or elliptical to better fit on the shelves.
Hi, CB!
Council Bluffs? Man, if I were still in Nebraska, you'd be about 45 minutes' drive from me, and I'd love to have been able to meet up with you! Well... unless you decide to travel overseas right now, that's not really an option, so just... I guess look over the Missouri River and shout "Hi!" for me! ;)
Ah, yeah, I guess they'd fit better as non-circles, but still, that's less traditional and just a tad less sightly and easy to work with. I dunno, just my quick thoughts on that. Circular punch-out cardboard tokens are really common items, rectangles are also a bit common, but not as widely used, so they might look a bit odd or handle differently.
@Geist, sorry to hear your news. Job hunting is never fun. Wish I could send some recruiters your way. I get calls all the time when I AM employed. Feel free to vent here if you needto.
Yea-... oh, whoa, WHOA! Geist, I'm so sorry! Man, I was so busy with my own business the past couple days that I didn't even see that!
`
So sorry, Geist, I know this is really hard, but you know we're all here for you for this very reason. Best of luck finding a new job, especially with that new licensing you just earned, that should probably widen your prospects a good bit! Though it would have been quadrupally nice now if they'd had that part-time job at the end.
But yeah, either way, don't worry, I've got your back. I've got a solid shot of booze for ya, I know it's probably helped you a good bit through this tough situation already.
In a nutshell, I know this is absolute bullshit, but I know you shouldn't have too much trouble at all finding something new, especially with all those aspirations you've been realizing recently. In fact, this could very well turn out to be a major blessing for you, opening up all sorts of new opportunities!
Square tokens work. I still think each one should have a shape printed on it for reasons already explained
Yeah, I will say that no matter the shape of the token, it should be clearly a specific item.
Well, what I had in mind was that we'd only have, say, 60 tokens. That would make for a 6 player game (6 of each token item token x 10 possible items). One of the tokens is put on the item card in the Master List area of the playing space. The Master List shows all the items up for grabs, even though not every player will have some on their individual list. That way, we'd only ever have to worry about making those 60 tokens, and we can add all kinds of items without bogging down setup time with hunting down the exact right token for the relatively few items in play.
So when an item on someone's list isn't on the master list, what do they do? Redraw until everything they have to find is in the store? Or realistically go to another store and hope they have it? I mean... I doubt people would want THAT much realism in a game! ;)
So ... the tokens are generic and the Master List is the key? In that case, we could use tokens with numbers and letters on them and use the number of letter on the token to look up what it is on the Master List.
While this simplifies the game mechanics, it doesn't provide a graphically rich environment for game play. If we went with this, I think one of our Stretch Goals should be to replace these generic tokens with tokens that are unique to each item. Ex. The Lettuce Field token would look like a doll and the Fruitcake token would look like an actual fruitcake. This would require a lot more token design, hence the need for a Stretch Goal to make it worth our while to put forth the effort.
I’m still waiting for mine. Have they all been shipped?
Rebecca, are you sure you have the right campaign? Exploding Kittens? Because they shipped like 2 1/2 years ago.
If you really haven't gotten your Exploding Kittens deck, try emailing support@explodingkittens.com
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Everyone else here, that's still the email right? Almost certain that's still the one to email for troubles.
I want to buy a German version of EK, but the link doesn't have any way to order it (and if it's sold out, it also doesn't say that), but also seeing several people in the update comments saying they're just getting the English version through a company in their country, it makes me nervous to get it even if they had stock.
Morning kittens.
Morning kittens.
Master list = the ten (or fewer) cards used to construct the personal list. So there's no chance of having an item on the personal list that isn't on the master list. I'll see if I can put together a rough drawing of the game layout as I see it to make it more clear. Look for a dropbox link
Morning kittens.
@LZ, wouldn't it make more sense to have a separate set of tokens for each store? If you wanted to put them together to make a bigger game, it would be hard with generic tokens imo. I was thinking themed tokens for each type of store.
Haha, that's a good point, this game lends itself nicely to expansions and new versions, just have a different kind of store!
So... This is a thing apparently: https://www.tun.com/blog/mit-glow-in-the-dark-plants-light-source/ The possibilities seem to be endless! Next step, Groot!
Omg! Treeminators! That is all. ;)
Afternoon kittens...who's ready for Valentine's Day?
@Elan, lol, as ready as any married man can be... got the gift w/creative packaging, got the nice card, going to grab some flowers on the way home tomorrow... so yeah, I think I'm ready... ;) You?
@Rod this will be my first Vday spent married so I'm pretty excited.
@Elan, that is awesome! Congratulations! Remember that the little simple things, done by you, make the biggest impression! Make her favorite dinner, or give her a nice massage, or do both! One of the things that I like to do, is put her towel and bath robe in the dryer, get her to have a bath, then give her the warmed up towel and bath robe, then give her a nice massage! It works out quite well for me... ;) I hope that you guys have a wonderful time!
BaKhan, I'm as ready as ready as any single man can be. Not really an big holiday for me. ;)
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Hi, Elan! Great to see you! How's it going? Happy Valentino's day, that sounds exciting! Especially when you say Vday, then it sounds like you've already got the beachheads planned.
Yes... I really did just say "an holiday". How did I not see that?! I bring myself nothing but shame.
It's really great to see everyone here. The whole team has been working towards a big update tomorrow (that we'll tell you about before anyone else) but as I was preparing the update, I wanted to quickly pop my head in and say that you kittens are the greatest. Always makes me smile to read through the community that continues to thrive here.
@Elan, excited for the update! We’re always glad to see you pop in too! We would most likely never have made each other’s acquaintance any other way, so thanks to you for introducing me to so many great people!
Yeah, no kidding!
It makes everyone's day when you check in, Elan! And of course we still thrive here! Actually... there may be no way out, now.
Anyways, can't wait for the update!
Morning kittens. I'm back in Charlotte, NC today. Looks like all of the active KS campaigns that I had pledged completed funding while I was away. Now I get to go back to waiting for my goodies to arrive.
... unless Elan's BIG ANNOUNCEMENT is another KS that we can all jump on ...
<3 <3 <3
Morning kittens.
@CB, yep, hyped about what the new update may be! As long as it isn't for a competitive shopping game... ;) Also, welcome home! ;)